Plants, People, Science

Horticultural Therapy, Part Two - An Interview with Abby Jaroslow

• American Society for Horticultural Science (ASHS) • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In the second part of the Plants, People, Science Horticultural Therapy discussion, Lara follows up on the topic with horticultural therapist Abby Jaroslow who leads the horticultural therapy program at the Alice & Herbert Sachs Therapeutic Conservatory at MossRehab Einstein Medical Center in Elkins Park, PA and is also an instructor at the New York Botanical Gardens. She works with individuals recovering from spinal cord injury, traumatic brain injury, stroke, amputation, and other medical conditions in inpatient and outpatient capacities. Ms. Jaroslow discusses her day-to-day work and the professional and personal journey that led her to a career dedicated to horticultural therapy.

For more information on Abby Jaroslow and the MossRehab horticultural therapy program go to https://www.mossrehab.com/horticultural-therapy. 

Learn more about the American Society for Horticultural Science (ASHS) at https://ashs.org/.
HortTechnology, HortScience and the Journal of the American Society for Horticultural Science are all open-access and peer-reviewed journals, published by the American Society of Horticultural Science (ASHS). Find them at journals.ashs.org.

Consider becoming an ASHS member at https://ashs.org/page/Becomeamember!

You can also find the official webpage for Plants, People, Science at ashs.org/plantspeoplesciencepodcast, and we encourage you to send us feedback or suggestions at https://ashs.org/webinarpodcastsuggestion.

Podcast transcripts are available at https://plantspeoplescience.buzzsprout.com.

On LinkedIn find Sam Humphrey at linkedin.com/in/samson-humphrey. Curt Rom is at https://www.linkedin.com/in/curt-rom-611085134/. Lena Wilson is at https://www.linkedin.com/in/lena-wilson-2531a5141/.

Thank you for listening!


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Sam Humphrey:

Welcome to Plants, People, Science a podcast by the American Society for Horticultural Science where we talk about all things horticulture. Hey Lara, how's it going?

Lara Brindisi:

Good morning. What's going on with you?

Sam Humphrey:

I was just thinking about how, in our last episode on horticultural therapy, we closed off by mentioning that you have an Instagram called at the plant PhD. But things have changed, Lara. What's recent in your life?

Lara Brindisi:

Oh yeah. Well, I actually am a PhD now, technically no longer a student. You can call me doctor. In fact, that is the only title I'll be accepting, just kidding. For most people you can still call me Lara, but any students in the future will go by Dr Brindisi.

Sam Humphrey:

So, doctor, how do things feel? Does it feel like not too big of a change, or?

Lara Brindisi:

You know, I don't know. It kind of feels different. Right, it feels like I did achieve something pretty cool, but at the same time, my life is as normal and I'm still going about my day to day, finishing up my publications and looking at next steps and giving guest lectures, so it's almost like business as usual, though I do have something fun coming up. I'm doing a volunteer program through an organization called Farmer to Farmer through the USAID, where I'll be going to Ecuador to volunteer on a cacao farm, which I'm very excited about.

Sam Humphrey:

That's amazing. How long will you be out there Only about?

Lara Brindisi:

two weeks, so I'll try to get as much done as possible. What do you have going on?

Sam Humphrey:

Well, during that two weeks I'll be reading up on cacao so I can ask you the most intelligent questions possible about everything you've learned. But recently I have been still going, still doing my strawberry research, and the plants are growing really huge and so it's a lot of data to collect. So I've actually developed a app for my experiment and so I'm really excited about this app data management thing that I made and I got to recently show it to industry. So, yeah, exciting stuff all around.

Lara Brindisi:

Very cool. Does the app make your work easier, or is it just kind of a tool that helps you visualize it?

Sam Humphrey:

So imagine you have a strawberry plant and it's producing a bunch of these stolons, these like runner, like almost vines, that have daughter plants growing off of them, clonal daughter plants and these daughter plants grow extremely quickly. And so if I didn't have some sort of app or way to very quickly collect this data, it would just be out of hand. It would be impossible to log every single daughter as it develops. But so, yeah, part of it is just logging a lot of data, but it's more like just the pace of it. It's really intense. Who knew?

Lara Brindisi:

Great Love to hear it.

Sam Humphrey:

Now, I've been really looking forward to our episode today. Welcome to part two of our episodes on horticultural therapy. Today we interview Abby Jaroslow, who practices horticultural therapy, and walks us through her day to day as a professional in the field. If you haven't checked out the first episode, no problem, this episode can be standalone, but we definitely recommend giving it a listen. In our last episode, we interviewed Dr Candice Shoemaker, who has spent part of her career researching horticultural therapy.

Lara Brindisi:

Unfortunately, Sam couldn't make this interview due to the occasional woes of being a graduate student, but I had the pleasure of interviewing Abby Jaroslow, who is a professional horticultural therapist. She earned her bachelors in environmental design and architecture at UC Berkeley and her master's in historic preservation and conservation at Columbia University. She also studied ornamental horticulture at Mercer County Community College and became certified through ASHS. She was president of the Mid-Atlantic Horticultural Therapy Network for four years. Today, she leads the Horticultural Therapy Program at Moss Rehab Einstein Healthcare in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, while also being an instructor at the New York Botanical Gardens.

Sam Humphrey:

This episode will be great for anyone interested in pursuing horticultural therapy as a career or as a patient. With that, let's get into today's episode.

Lara Brindisi:

Well, welcome Abby. We're happy to have you on as a horticultural therapist. I have some questions for you. If you're ready to jump into it, Sure. What does your day-to-day look like as a professional horticultural therapist? I?

Abby Jaroslow:

guess the best way to describe that is to talk about this space that I work in. So that is a. It's a glass house, a greenhouse in the in a courtyard of a hospital building, and the greenhouse is divided into two rooms. The front room is sort of a display room. It's where I keep my large tropical plants and sort of my specimen plants, and then there's seating there and there's lots of room for wheelchairs. Because I work in a rehab hospital Rehabilitation, it's physical rehabilitation hospital, so that's for people who are recovering from injuries and illnesses and surgeries and things like that. The middle room of the, the second room of the greenhouse, is our work room and that's where I work with patients and actually do therapy and I have a big work table in the middle, so that about, and then some smaller tables on the side so we can get about eight wheelchairs around the table and they, the tables, are adjustable so that all the different types of wheelchairs can fit at the table, so everybody is able to look at each other.

Abby Jaroslow:

And while we're, while we're running a group, then the in that room I keep usually like we do. The activities that we do are things like propagating. I keep a lot of four to six inch size plants in there. So we do transplanting, we do propagation, sometimes we do nature crafts and I do groups twice a day and then I do individual sessions with one-on-one with a patient throughout the other parts of the day. What else?

Abby Jaroslow:

I also have a volunteer team, so my job involves not only working with patients but also caring for that greenhouse.

Abby Jaroslow:

There's also another room that is my office and supply room, and then outside the rest of the courtyard is designed specifically for wheelchairs and for it's all raised containers with plants so that patients can work on those containers as well. And there are two argors out there that provide shade and in the summer the tropical plants go out there. So it's like a little oasis when you step out in there, because it's small and very contained and all surrounded by plants. So to maintain all that, I do have a volunteer crew and before the pandemic I had about 10 volunteers who were putting in about 30 hours combined a week. Now they just came back on board the beginning of this year and four of them came back and I have about four new ones that are in the process of getting on boarded. So hopefully we'll be back up and running with volunteers. So basically my jobs include caring for the facility and the garden and running the volunteer crew and then working directly one-on-one with patients, and this year I have an assistant for 16 hours a week, which is really great.

Lara Brindisi:

Oh, wow, okay, so your work is really split between preparation and then the actual sessions. What does an actual session look like?

Abby Jaroslow:

So a group session tends to be a little more social. So we focus more on sort of stress reduction. You know every patient has. They have goals and objectives for their therapy and when they come to the greenhouse a big part of that is stress reduction and relaxation, socialization when it's a group, and communication. So many of our patients have cognitive issues and speech issues so that socialization is used. You know it gives them an opportunity to work on those skills and then the activities themselves are done tabletop, so they're also working on fine motor skills.

Abby Jaroslow:

If I have a physical therapist joining the group then they met. The patient might be working on standing or balance you know, endurance and balance and the physical therapist would be monitoring that and assessing the patient. And what we find is that the patients really are able to do more when they're in the greenhouse and I think part of it is that they're distracted by the activity. But I also believe that the that the, just the being in the presence of plants is, you know, is helping them to relax so that they're more able to do the work that they're doing and they're not so focused on what they can't do but what they can do.

Lara Brindisi:

Okay, and then in one of these sessions, is it all focused on, let's say, patients who went through a stroke, or is it a diversity of medical conditions?

Abby Jaroslow:

So the patients that we work with in physical rehab here are.

Abby Jaroslow:

We have patients who have had a stroke, we have patients with spinal cord injury, we have patients with traumatic brain injury and we have patients with traumatic amputation and then other sort of complex neurological or orthopedic conditions.

Abby Jaroslow:

So there's such a wide variety of abilities, both cognitive and physical, with those different groups and that's, and so my, my groups are divided, so half the groups I do on the units where I'm, so I'm working with, you know, if I'm on the spinal cord unit then I'm working only with persons who have had a spinal cord injury. But when I do my group, my afternoon group in the conservatory, we do it at the end of the day and it's really intended to be very much for respite and relaxation so, and I do it in conjunction with the recreation department as well. So there we have patients coming from every different unit. So there's a real variety in abilities. But I have the volunteers, I have the assistants, the rec therapists, so we're all there to kind of pitch in and where there's a patient that needs more assistance, you know somebody's they're able to to assist and I sort of act as the facilitator for the activity, you know, giving instructions and and handling the materials and so forth and keeping to the clock.

Lara Brindisi:

What would be an example of a specific activity that you've designed for your patients?

Abby Jaroslow:

So I do try to, I like to make the activities as sensory rich as possible, Because the goal is to have the patient really feel removed from the hospital. We want them to not be thinking about, you know, to get out of their head, thinking, worrying about what's going to happen to them, you know, thinking about what's going on and what their you know what their care is is going to be like when they leave the hospital. And so I do a lot with dried herbs. We make coquery, we make hand soap and hand sugar scrubs and sugar and salt scrubs for your hands with herbs. So those are the ones that smell really wonderful. We also do flower.

Abby Jaroslow:

I do flower arranging, so that you know, I we bring in cut flowers and then we make these small arrangements. And I have a method that allows the patient to have some structure first and then they have the freedom to design the rest of it themselves, and it's such a way that every single arrangement comes out beautifully and they're all different, even though they're often using the same flowers. So that's that's another favorite of mine. And then, you know, but my real go to activity is transplanting, just transplanting from a four inch pot to a five inch pot and that is very sensory involved as well. So they're using fine motor skill, they're using cognitive skill because they're listening to the instructions and then having to do the sequential steps that are involved in doing a transplant and they get to smell the earth and I always have them mix the soil by hand in a.

Abby Jaroslow:

I give them small trays of soil and they put their hands in it and mix it by hand and we can have, we can do 10 minutes or 10 to 15 minutes of just having sitting around the table and everybody's got their hands in the dirt and what happens is you could you get the smell, the scent of the soil and the and the texture and the feel of it on your hands and the rhythmic motion of doing the mixing and it becomes very meditative. So we've had, I've had some very spontaneous group conversation Emotional, you know emotional and so it's really kind of amazing. I feel like I could do a whole session just with mixing soil.

Lara Brindisi:

Yeah, and then another benefit right that gets it to keep the plants after.

Abby Jaroslow:

And they do. Yeah, they get to bring them home and they really like that.

Lara Brindisi:

Wow, yeah, sounds like a great session. I mean and you're observing your, your patients going through this therapy you've mentioned that they get stress relief and opportunity to have conversation, enter this meditative state. What kinds of benefits have you noticed in patients that receive horticultural therapy?

Abby Jaroslow:

So I think, in addition to the, the, the, the relaxation and the stress reduction and that sort of thing, there is and there's a lot written on this too about how being in contact with plants has a physiological effect on the, on the human body, whether it's the you know, the microorganisms that are in the soil or the, the fact of the care that somebody is giving to the plant.

Abby Jaroslow:

And you know, for somebody who's in the hospital and has been in the hospital for months and has not been able to take care of themselves not been able to, you know, in any way, you know whether even possibly feeding themselves or going to the restroom themselves and so to be able to care for something else that is alive is really meaningful and has a lot of metaphors. I've had you mentioned that the patients take their plants home, and I have had patients come back to me years after they've left the hospital and tell me that they still have their plant at home and it's thriving and that it really helped them adjust to being back home because they had this thing, to this, this, this living thing to take care of and to, to talk to sometimes, and and it was sort of a reflection of how the plant was growing and they were improving, and so that's, it's really rewarding when I hear things like that.

Lara Brindisi:

Yeah, I'm sure you spend all this time with your, your patients, and then to actually have them keep the plants alive must be very rewarding on your end. Have any of your patients in particular made a big impression on you?

Abby Jaroslow:

Yeah, I mean, I think the the one that I often refer to when I get the ask that question is an older woman who had had a stroke and very often with stroke, depending on the part of the brain that is affected the, the, the, the differences, the difference in their abilities. That change varies based on where in the brain the the damages, and often it's speech, and so there it's. It's called aphasia. When somebody loses the ability to speak, it's very. There's all different types of aphasia. It's sort of complex but but it's the output often is the hardest thing.

Abby Jaroslow:

And there was a woman who came for the first time and she at first we just were looking around and we weren't really doing an activity yet, we were just enjoying the atmosphere and she kept looking up at the glass roof and it was a beautiful blue you know blue sky day and she pointed to it and I noticed that she was getting very teary and she pointed to the sky and she put her hand over her heart and she pointed to the sky and she put her hand over her heart and then through asking her a lot of questions and and just and her gestures, which is how you often communicate with somebody with aphasia. In the beginning she said that she felt like she was in the presence of God and it made her, you know, weep a little and it made me a little teary too. So that was. That was a very touching time.

Lara Brindisi:

Wow, did you always know that you wanted to enter this career? How did you first find out about horticultural therapy?

Abby Jaroslow:

so I did not and always know about it, but but I did always.

Abby Jaroslow:

I was always an outdoors person. I really like to hike and kayak and, you know, just be out in the environment. And I as a as a in my previous career as a historic preservation architect, I just happened to have the opportunity to work on some historic landscapes, public. One was a public park and one was a well several actually but it was a private garden that was open to the public, but it was a. The second one and it was an estate garden and both of those were really like I just loved doing those projects. I had nothing, I had nothing to do with the horticulture side. I was working on the infrastructure, but it really sort of got me jazzed about plants and learning more about them. You know I always had house plants and I always did well caring for them, but I net, I was never. I lived in the city all the time, so I as an adult, and so I never had the opportunity to have a garden. But I got really excited about it and I, after the the housing market crashed, I was laid off from my job as an architect and it seemed like it was a great opportunity at that point to go back to school and study horticulture.

Abby Jaroslow:

The reason I knew about horticultural therapy was because my daughter who was three actually at the time that she was diagnosed with a brain tumor, was treated at NYU, which is affiliated with Russ Greheb Hospital in New York City. We were living in New York then and they had one of the old and Russ has one of the oldest horticultural therapy programs in the country and they had a wonderful greenhouse there that had a children's garden outside and then another garden and then several rooms in the greenhouse. They had birds that talked and bunnies to pet. It was a really great place and so we spent my daughter and I spent a lot of time there because it was so much better than being there, than being in the hospital room, and she was treated, for she was in and out of the hospital for years. Nyu became like our second home, so, but that was how I first heard about horticultural therapy and after years of taking care of her when she was older I was able to go.

Abby Jaroslow:

Well, I was able to go back to work and then got laid off from that job, and when I was thinking about a new career I was thinking about healthcare because I had become really interested in that, spending so much time in a hospital. And then I but also I really wanted to be outdoors in nature. So I it was just one of those aha moments which you'll hear that almost every horticultural therapist say that that the way they figured out this was what they were gonna do was an aha moment. And so I figured I can combine healthcare and nature. So I did, yeah, so that's how.

Abby Jaroslow:

And you know, when you asked about the patient that had the most effect on me, of course, was my daughter. So she ended up with a brain injury as a result of the combination of the tumor itself and then all the treatments that she had after that. And you know she's 37 now, so this was more than 25 years ago, and at that time there really were not treatments for that, for that type of tumor that she had. So everything, all the treatment she got, was somewhat experimental and so anyway, she survived it all. And that was sort of my introduction, but she's my special patient with a brain injury.

Lara Brindisi:

Of course I'm so sorry you had to go through all of that, but it does sound like you are, you know, paying it forward by serving as a horticultural therapist for all of these patients now who might be going through something similar. So that's a wonderful way to turn you know as something that could be very painful and difficult to deal with and to something very beautiful.

Abby Jaroslow:

And I will say that I was, my husband and I were fortunate to find a residential facility in the Catskill Mountains where she is living now as an adult, and it is. They have gardens. They have beautiful healing gardens, but then they also have vegetable gardens and they have a farm and they provide all the food they grow their own food, basically including the meat and eggs and poultry, as well as all the vegetables. So it's a really fabulous place and the residents are involved in nature all the time. It's a nature-based program.

Lara Brindisi:

So you had this really impactful event that really opened your eyes to horticultural therapy. You had always known that you were interested in plants, but when it became time to actually transition your career, how did you actually do that and how did you actually become the certified horticultural therapist?

Abby Jaroslow:

Well, so there are certificate programs and there are also some bachelor's programs, I believe. Throughout the country. There's not a lot of them, but there are several, and many of them are on the East Coast, in the Mid-Atlantic region, which is where I'm located. New York Botanical Garden is one of the programs, one of the very well-loved programs, and Rutgers also has a program, a certificate program. So, as it turned out, I didn't go to either of those places. I ended up going to a program that's affiliated with the University of Colorado, but they do like a distance program and they come to the East Coast twice a year once a year and the West Coast once a year and so when they were on the East Coast, I took their certificate program over the course of like a year, but at the same time I needed to study horticulture.

Abby Jaroslow:

So I got a certificate in ornamental horticulture from the community college in my neighborhood and I also studied psychology and some anatomy and physiology and some other medical courses, because I knew that the direction I wanted to go with my practice was in a medical setting, in a very clinical setting.

Abby Jaroslow:

So I took all those classes.

Abby Jaroslow:

It took two years, and then the American Horticultural Therapy Association offers a registration process that requires certain courses to be taken and then a 480 hour internship, which I did at the Rust Institute at NYU, and yeah, and then I started, and so I got registered in 2012 and I started working as a freelancer in a variety of settings, because Horticultural Therapy is practiced in so many different types of places, but I always knew my goal, ultimately, was to work in a medical setting.

Abby Jaroslow:

And then the Moss rehab, where I work, had had a local family come to the hospital and offered to build a greenhouse if the hospital would create a full-time horticultural therapy program, and, of course, the hospital was thrilled to do that. And the interesting thing was the way that the family came to know about horticultural therapy was also through the Rusk Institute, because they had a family member who was a patient there and they found respite in that program. So it meant so much to them and they live in this community, so they came to this hospital, which was local to them and offered that gift, which was amazing. And so once they had the building up in construction, they started to look for a full-time horticultural therapist and I just luckily, was at the right place at the right time.

Lara Brindisi:

My dream. Wow, what inspired the philanthropists to want to build a greenhouse attached to a hospital? How did they come up with that?

Abby Jaroslow:

As I said, they had a family member who was treated at the Rusk Institute at NYU and so they became aware of horticultural therapy through that program and they had sat in the garden and sat in the greenhouse and found respite there and that was what put that in their minds. And they're very wonderful people and they wanted to do something for their community and they just felt that that was such a unique program and this rehab hospital is very well known actually throughout the country, but especially locally, and they literally live in the same town, so it was right here and it seemed like a great opportunity for them.

Lara Brindisi:

So besides Moss Rehab, einstein Hospital and NYU, are there other hospitals or programs that use horticultural therapy, like this one?

Abby Jaroslow:

There are, ironically, in Philadelphia there are two other rehab hospitals and both of them have greenhouses and have horticultural therapy programs. I think it's pretty unusual to have three hospitals and three rehab hospitals in the same city, but there are so many different settings where people are doing horticultural therapy, especially now, as so many people became aware of gardening during COVID, and I think that's really carried on and people become aware of horticultural therapy because of that, because there was so much written about it during COVID.

Abby Jaroslow:

But there, like when I worked freelance, I worked with children. I worked in several different residential facilities for older adults, skilled nursing facilities. I worked with a group from the New Jersey Commission on the Blind. They had a recreation group where we did horticultural therapy. Schools that cater to persons with developmental disabilities or autism, and now even the mainstream schools are putting in gardens and putting in garden programs. They may not be calling it horticultural therapy but it is. And hospitals too your acute care hospitals are also putting in healing gardens, they call them. But everybody in healthcare is becoming aware of the fact that having a connection to nature is a positive, has a beneficial effect on healing and recovery and also eating healthy. There's so much information out there now about how much what we eat affects our health, and the two biggest health risks in the now in the country are diabetes and obesity, and certainly by the food issues or a big part of that.

Lara Brindisi:

Yeah, so it sounds like the market for horticultural therapy jobs is improving then.

Abby Jaroslow:

It is improving? Yeah, it does seem to be. I know so. I had served as president of the Mid-Islandic Horticultural Therapy Network, which is for New York, new Jersey and Pennsylvania, and we have a jobs board there which had been pretty sparse for a long, long time. But lately there have been several full-time jobs posted and when those get filled there seem to be more coming up. And then the other thing is a lot of the students coming out of all of the programs.

Abby Jaroslow:

I'm most familiar with the botanical garden because I teach there. But there the students themselves are coming up with all kinds of interesting places to engage in horticultural therapy or to bring the program into an existing setting With different. You know, I've had several students who have been either working as social workers or case managers or occupational therapists or teachers, and they themselves have their own personal interest in gardening and then learn about horticultural therapy, get trained in it and then bring it into their whatever their practice is in the first place. And I have students who've worked with LGBTQ youth, with youth at-risk youth. I've had students who've worked with very little children, with on the autism spectrum. Just now, homelessness is also a place where the supported housing are putting in gardens. There's food gardens and things like that, so it's soup kitchens are putting in gardens. There's a lot of interest in the natural world.

Lara Brindisi:

I love hearing the interest grow for plants at any time, but I'm a little bit biased and so you're talking about, you know, all these growing opportunities. What kind of personality traits or skills do you think it takes to be a good horticultural therapist?

Abby Jaroslow:

Well, probably foremost would be empathy. You know somebody with a very empathic I think that's the word personality. What I teach, so the course I teach, is treatment planning. So it's sort of start to finish how do you take a horticultural activity and turn it into a therapeutic process? And so one of the things we talk about is therapeutic use of self, and that is, you know, sort of looking at yourself and thinking about those traits that are, you know, it's empathy, compassion oh gosh, I'm not going to remember them all, I should have looked them up. But yeah, and sort of sharing, and also, anybody who goes into this field is very passionate about it, just as, I think, in any of the horticulture fields people are passionate about what they do. And so if you bring that passion to your job, you know the people you're working with, just you know, pick up on it. Oh, another place where there are horticultural therapy programs are prisons.

Abby Jaroslow:

Oh wow, rikers Island has a very, very extensive and old program.

Lara Brindisi:

Yeah, that's pretty incredible and I do like how underlying horticultural therapy is, essentially, that you know plants and nature should be accessible to all. Okay, well, great. Thank you so much for doing this interview with me. Is there anything else you'd like to share that we didn't cover?

Abby Jaroslow:

Yeah, I would just say to you know to look for programs out there. If you have any interest in it, it's it's, it is. It's for me it's been the best decision I've made in my life to change to this field. It may. It also makes it's very therapeutic for me to be doing this.

Lara Brindisi:

So if anybody listening wants more information about your program or your work, what's the best way to find out?

Abby Jaroslow:

Probably the best way would be to go to the moss rehabcom website and if you go to the homepage and then click on the services button, you'll find listed all the services that that moss provides, and horticultural therapy is listed there. I have, I'm so lucky that the hospital really embraces the program and encourages really, you know, promotes it and encourages patients to utilize it. So we're right there on the website.

Lara Brindisi:

Excellent, Abby. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Abby Jaroslow:

Oh, you're very welcome. It's my pleasure.

Sam Humphrey:

To learn more about the horticultural therapy program forged by Amy Jarislow, please visit moss rehabcom. Forward slash horticultural dash therapy.

Lara Brindisi:

If you'd like more information about the American society for horticultural science in general, you can go to ashsorg Sam. If people want to follow your work, what's the best way?

Sam Humphrey:

You can find me on LinkedIn at Samson Home, free Lara, what about you?

Lara Brindisi:

You can follow me on Instagram at the plant PhD or on LinkedIn with the tag Lara Brindisi.

Sam Humphrey:

Thanks for joining us. Stay tuned for our next episode.

Lara Brindisi:

ASHS podcasts are made possible by member dues and volunteerism. Please go to ashsorg to learn more. If you are not already a member of ASHS, we invite you to join us. Ashs is a not for profit and your donations are tax deductible. This episode was hosted by Sam Humphrey and Lara Brindisi. Special thanks to our audio engineer, alex Fraser, our research team, lena Wilson and Andrew Comatz, our ASHS support team, sarah Powell and Sally Murphy, and our musician, john Clark.